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A Mike Mangini clinic was my 2nd ever clinic, it was the worst clinic i ever attended but then again im thankful that i did because i still learnt from it...even if i learnt what to avoid....what not to do just from what he was doing...
and yes ann is quite freaky deaky
Mangini @ drummerworld
There are some clips of him playing on a new Rush tribute.
The guy has energy. I still like Neil's heavier playing.
The guitar sound is GODAWFUL. WTF?
I detect a lot of green eyed monsters on this thread. I don't know why? ha
I enjoyed that video, Mangini seemed like he was having fun and entertaining the audience.
As far as it being musical or not is subjective. I think it was musical, he had some themes going on, with some cross rhythmic phrases being setup. There was an overall shape to the solo, a very predictable one but a shape nonetheless. Sure there was a boatload of "tricks" shoehorned in there but you gotta be entertaining to a certain extent, especially to what seemed like a drum clinic crowd. To me saying something rhythmically is just as important as any of the other musical concepts.
I've seen him perform with a band and I've always felt that he can't really groove to save his life but, that's not what he's about. There's alot of guys out there who can kick a fatter pocket than Mangini but if you're writing music that's a little more sophisticated and exotic on a rhythmic level, he's one of the guys you call. Just my opinion.
I have a philosophy about what 'sounds good' to a person when it comes to rhythmic phrasing. If it isn't an actual singable phrase then i would guess that it won't sound to musical to a listener. The human mind is 'trained' to piece things into discrete information so that it can be processed and evaluated. A 19 over 13 polyrhythm is so 'out there', i would guess that it isn't a naturally occuring grouping in everyday experience, so therefore it probably is a harder thing to 'hear' and therefore, doesn't sound as musical.
To my ear, Lang and Virgil don't piece things as 'digestable' as Marco does... and all three of them sound more 'musical' than Mangini. When it comes to wacky polyrhythms, Marco groups them so i can 'hear' them better. He doesn't just play these linear lines of 19's over 13's, he breaks them up so the brain can find a way to digest those pieces and make sense of them. I can hear a phrase that makes sense and i can remember it, so it sounds like music. Just like someone speaking your native language sounds like they are speaking a language, and not just babbling in sounds. However, same with language, the more you listen to a 19 over 13, the more you could assimilate that 'language'; however, i still think things like that are inherently farther away from how we process that type of information, so therefore, i don't think it will ever sound as musical (when speaking of someone playing an on-going drone of 19's over 13's).
That is my assumption to why Mangini's stuff just doesn't do it for people, in a solo. Hearing all these polyrhythms just sounds like babbling... people can't make sense of them because it is a stream of rhythms that are not common for the ear to hear, and they (on top of that) aren't broken into pieces that can be taken in discrete quantities. Listen to how we talk, how we read and write... it isn't one longlineofwordsthatneverendsandjustseemsto gooninthehopesofoverwhelmingthereaderwith thesheervolumeandattackonthesensethata neverendingbarrageofinformationbrings. I mean in language: it isn't one long line of words that never ends and just seems to go on in the hopes of overwhelming the reader with the sheer volume and attack on the sense that a neverending barrage of information brings. Music, to me, makes sense in the same terms.
That is my little deal.
Bells, that was quite a good post, as good as peter c's.
Esp this statement: "To me saying something rhythmically is just as important as any of the other musical concepts" I like that [As long as a drumr can comp &/or also solo over the form AW. [img]wink.gif[/img] ]
I've gotten the ol' [img]graemlins/hmmm.gif[/img] from an old jazz/swg teacher for my "jazz" solo compg [fuso, again, really!] [img]redface.gif[/img] ...& prob rightfully so, from his standpoint, perhaps! [img]wink.gif[/img]
This clip is like an oddity or fish out of water for MM...I've seen him in clinic & he does some amazingly hip things. And play machine-gun-like fuso or prog rock, which you can usually get away with within this genre. Pocket music? No. But 'tight n bright' or spot-on, click-studio-fuso rock thing? Absolutely. He smoked along to some trax in the clinic.
AFA the sideshow aspect in this partic clip, when i saw him in clinic, he did some of this which was OBV he was poking fun at himself & all pretentious rocker-types, a comical twist to his perf, but that gets completely lost in this clip, & it does appear rather pretensious, maudlin or gauche. But when i saw him, that was def not the case. [WTH?]
PP - I actually disagree w yas here broski...i think Virg's polys tend to ebb & flow, as 1 member said at 1 time, "appear to compress & decompress into each other as it goes by" [parphrased], which is what polys should sound like, to me anyways. But on the Vai Astoria DVD there is sometimes a lack of ['slipperier'] 'pocket' as we sometimes say. But WTHeck, it's a VAI show FPS [not that that's nec an 'excuse'!] ;-p.
I don't know if guys like Virg or really more the MMs inpartic will ever garrooove like Chambers, or Gadd, Vega, Kelt, Marotta, JR, Ersk, whomever. But they "have their own thing going on." To me, I don't nec like to hang VD in there w those others because to me, when he wants, he has IMHO a little more groove element to his playg [don't any1 get upset!], esp on some of the PX AWA OTV/SYI.
[BTW - which STV r u refrg to here? Smithie, Hass, Michaud, or Holmes?!] ;-p
Anyway, if worse comes to worse, i bought a 'reconstituted'[!] palm casst tp recrdr at Big Lots[!] for like $16/17 one time when my other unit took a dive...I KNOW, casst tp, changing the tp 45 min to 1 hr into it, blecchh...but WTH, ya gotta do SOMETHING in a pinch, RIGHT?!
...NO humitliy in a bind, eh?! ;-)
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 15, 2005 04:13 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>
Nice post, mat!
You know, sometimes i think the exact OPPOSTE is also true, but 1 that may be missed by many musos, because of the fact that one IS a muso.
Some 'beginner' or even intrmediate type listeners hear the stuff & just simply equate it w good or accomplished drumming / rhythm. Are they hearing 9 over 7 specifically? No. But some intuitively know that what their hearing is complex in relation to most of the other stuff out there, awa they 'trust' that the accomplished drumr theyre witnessing knows WTH he or she's doing.
IOWs, sometimes i thiink other more accomplished musos tend to be the most hyper-critical of another's choices in performance sometmes, moreso than the average avid listener.
As a novice I could get joy out of MMs perf. As a somewaht advanced' player, I can also judge his perf accordg to my pers criteria, & dislike some or all of it.
And NOW we're back to the subjective, relative, 'eye of the beholder' concept. Which is what music is really supposed to be anyway, is it not?
Other musos can often be a MF'n "tough crowd!" [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Having said THAT, the 'cure';-) for ALL is any Gadd, Omar, WillK, BStew, JHam, Tain, Vega, Kelt, Marotta, BWard, or Ersk track...or listen to Weck's solo at end of Stern's You Never Know off Between the Lines. [img]eek.gif[/img] Holey musicality, Scatman. [img]cool.gif[/img]
I also meant to include that i think perhaps these clips we're talkg about are meant to give a little glimpse of what went down at that event, AOT trying to sound like a pro-studio w pro-tools CD recordg. They indeed don't sound "the best," but i think it gives an idea of what Will, Omar, & MM were about that day.
Maybe they don't want net peeps to pro-qual boot or ebay 'em... ;-p
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 15, 2005 04:17 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>
I can understand why this clip has been so disliked. It's poorly recorded, MM isn't playing as cleanly as he can, etc.
Matchgrip is right, this is the end of his solo, and Mike often showboats beyond belief. I've seen him play a one-handed roll and eat a marshmallow with the other hand. It's meant to be a joke, period.
Can Mike groove? Yes. But he grooves like a rocker rather than a jazzer or N'awlins drummer. He plays predominantly single-stroke patterns which makes him sound strong, direct and forceful, rather than rudimental double-stroked patterns (i.e. bounced) which have a rounder, subtler, and softer quality. I've seen him solo for an hour straight (we've had him in clinic 6 times, I believe. He improvises in his solo's, but again, it's not like a jazz drummer. He also plays some very odd stuff in his solo's, as Matricks alluded to, much of which, I believe is meant to be a demonstration of technique and skills (like a DCI snare solo as opposed to a Pipe Band snare solo-which is very musical and is played along with a Piper), rather than a musical conversation. After all, a solo isn't a conversation - it's a monologue.
I have a friend who hates Mangini's soloing. Finds it the same as most people here. But having seen him, respects his absolutely incredible abilities. You might want to check him out with a band, you'll probably like him more in that context.
Two things that will either amuse you about Mike or make you like him even less....
When he toured with Missing Persons, he learned all of Terry Bozzio's parts exactly, note for note - right and left-handed! He'd switch back and forth, effortlessly.
In some of the cover band Rush vids I've seen with Mike, did the same thing with NP's parts, but he played many of Peart's fills one-handed. Yes, even the "fast" ones.
i've seen mangini play with a band several times at berklee and he totally kills. his musicality definitely comes out with other musicians.